From CD To TS... Is It Possible?

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Posted

(5-20-04) ~ FROM CD TO TS.....IS IT POSSIBLE? ~

We talk about many issues in our chatroom, but one of the most

hotly debated subjects I've ever been involved in there has been

that of the fetishistic crossdresser and whether or not a CD is

transsexual.

There are many among us who believe that if one becomes sexually

aroused by the donning of women's clothing, or by simply thinking

about metamorphosing into a female, then that individual is not

truly transsexual, but a man with a fetish.

I was one of those "aroused" CDs once, and I can state categor-

ically that I have NEVER considered myself a man-- not even a

male, in fact. I have always been an "incomplete woman."

Then, how can I reconcile that so often I utilized a part of me

that, by TS definition, I should have loathed? There's no question

that functioning in a male capacity was incredibly conflicting for

me. Given a choice, I'd have had no sexuality whatsoever.

How many crossdressers can identify with this: Being excited while

dressed as a woman, relieving that tension (you know how) and

then feeling disgusted with yourself afterward? You can't get out of

the clothing or wash that makeup off fast enough. Sound familiar?

What causes this cycle of arousal, excitement, climax, brief plea-

sure, self-loathing and then divestment? Is it the societal pro-

gramming that would have us believe that this is all deviant be-

havior, -or- does it go deeper than that, strike us at our hearts?

Is it possible that way down inside, all crossdressers, even the

ones who adamantly deny it, are just as transsexual as the gal

who never had an erection in her life prior to SRS? If the latter

is the case, it would definitely explain a lot. What clearer re-

minder that one's male body is out of sync with her female mind

is there than this ultimate act of masculine self-gratification?

Can the disgust that comes later be not with the act itself or

the clothing, but with the undeniable enforced maleness of one's

physicality?

All this is conjectural, and strictly my opinion. Yours is just

as valid, and I respect any differences you may have with me.

Now, let's turn briefly to those who believe that crossdressers

are just men with fetishes...

In 1998, I took blood tests prior to beginning HRT. I was 44 at

the time. It greatly surprised me to find out that my blood tes-

tosterone level was way too high. Normal levels are somewhere

between 300 and 650 units, while MY level was over 1000! The

doctor told me joshingly that if I were at all evil, I'd probably be

an axe murderer. Some joke.

I was WAY oversexed in middle age-- imagine how high my levels

must have been in my prime! This blood test revelation explained

why I had been so easily "turned on" all the time. You get enough

"juice" in your veins and you cannot control what it does to you.

So, I think that the gals who say they've never been aroused in a

male way naturally have extremely -low- levels of testosterone

in their systems. It is troubling that some of these hormonally

fortunate ladies would deny me and others our rightful claims to

transsexuality because of the uncontrollable arousal self-feminizing

has for us. --had-- in my case-- the whole experience for me was

ultimately non-fulfilling, and the need to truly metamorphose

pushed me forward, into HRT and my current state of assexuality,

prior to SRS.

If you are a crossdresser or transvestite and believe that you

are, when all is said and done, a man, I accept that. But, if deep-

down, you feel that you just may be transsexual, I truly understand!

Annie

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Posted

Hi Annie,

That is a thought-provoking message you posted. Actually I recall discussing this very question with one of my early "transsexual mentors" who provided a pretty compelling argument as to why someone who was clearly transsexual might start out experiencing sexual arousal when dressed. I think she may have nailed this one.

Isn't it likely that when we first begin dressing, we experience a liberation unlike anything we have ever experienced in the past. It feels good to explore our feelings of femininity and that often includes our sexual feelings. So, a newbie transsexual who begins dressing is likely to experience all sorts of rushes including sexually. This may lead to even further sexual exploration.

We're still rather puritanical in our society. Nobody wants to talk about sexuality, particularly when it falls outside the norm. I've never really agreed with the notion that a transsexual should not be sexually aroused from dressing, lest they be labeled a fetishistic crossdresser.

Labels are pretty dangerous after all. We humans fall at various points on continuums - not in black and white boxes. Why would transsexuality be any different?

Good topic for some discussion Annie. :)

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Posted

How many crossdressers can identify with this: Being excited while

dressed as a woman, relieving that tension (you know how) and then

feeling disgusted with yourself afterward? You can't get out of

the clothing or wash that makeup off fast enough. Sound familiar?

What causes this cycle of arousal, excitement, climax, brief plea-

sure, self-loathing and then divestment? Is it the societal pro-

gramming that would have us believe that this is all deviant be-

havior, -OR- does it go deeper than that, strike us at our hearts?

Is it possible that way down inside, all crossdressers, even the

ones who adamantly deny it, are just as transsexual as the gal

who never had an erection in her life prior to SRS? If the latter

is the case, it would definitely explain a lot. What clearer re-

minder that one's male body is out of sync with her female mind

is there than this ultimate act of masculine self-gratification?

Can the disgust that comes later be NOT with the act itself or

the clothing, but with the undeniable enforced maleness of one's

physicality?

]

I know these feelings all too well. I've always thought of myself as female and yet through my teen years, it was an extreme sexual turn on to dress in femminine clothing and then go through the feelings of shame and disgust upon sexual release. I couldn't even attempt an explanation of why this happened. I only know that over the years it became less and less of a sexual thing and turned into the wearing of clothing that was appropriate for my sexual orientation. Now, after I've worn a bra all day, I can't wait to get the damned thing off. LOL

MaryEllen :)

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Posted

Hi. Lori!

Thanks for sharing!

Your mentor's theory about the early experimental days of a transsexual's life sounds quite plausible to me. As far as that sexual cycle I described, the guilt or shame part didn't begin for me until well into my later teens and early adulthood. I have no idea why that is. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Mary Ellen,

I can surely relate to your last comment there. I am rather large-busted, and wear an underwire bra. Some days I work 16 hours, so when I get home its like:

"How do you spell relief?.......B--R--A........O--F--F......" (giggle)

When I'm off duty, I never wear one.

Annie

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Posted

The feelings of guilt after wearing attire is entirely placed there by society.

It is not abnormal, but you must exercise caution of how you engage in it around the company of others.

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Posted

Clothing of all sorts is unnatural: we have no genetic need to wear it, only social mores dictate we wear clothing. Yet, there are, we all know, instances of acceptable crosdressing like kilts or lava-lavas. Inthe 50's women wore men's clothing and it was considered crossdressing, yet now it is acceptable. It can be confusing and semingly hypocritical insociety how it's okay one way and not another.

There is this pressure to be accepting of homosexuals, yet crossdressing is frowned upon. Even though as recently as the 1700's men did regularly crossdress: wigs, makeup, knickers, tunics that were essentially dresses.

So when a person feels bored with traditional clothing and likes the textures and colours afforded by an alternate set of choices, I know I am preaching to the choir, but how is it ethically wrong to crossdress? If you're doing something that's not hurting anyone, it's really no one's business what we do as crossdressers. Relatively defined morals are simply desires of one group being enforced upon another by the power of numbers. That is wrong since no enitity's rights are greater or less than anothers.

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Posted

Hi, Kolleen!

Welcome to the TG Guide Forums, my dear.

As a member of the "choir" I am in complete harmony with your thoughts here. (smile)

Hope you will post more in the future!

PS--- At home, I am a naturalist! (grin)

Annie

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Posted

Thanks Annie!

I have often wondered what it would be like to be a female, just from the aspect of the aspect of what a anice nipple teasing might be like or the multiple g-spots a woman has. Not permanently, mind you, but maybe for a few months. I think the perspective it would give one would greatly enhance one's outlook onthe world.

I don't know that being a CD would necessarily lead to be becoming a TS then post-op unless that latency was already there.

It's odd really, but at another BBS I frequent, there are a number of TS', bi's and homosexuals there that all agree on one thing, and consequentially with us, what a person chooses to do, as long it's not hurting someone should be none of anyone else's concern and shouldn't be frowned upon by relatively defined social mores.

That doesn't mean I agree with someone's choice(s), but to paraphrase a great historical figure, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it."

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Posted

Thought I'd put in my two cents.

To go back to the question, I think its an interesting argument. I understand that it could be difficult to realize someone could actually be between genders if you are transsexual, but I do think these people exist, probably in higher numbers than we think.

Why? because if you accept the hormone wash theory, then shouldn't there be several brains that are partially masculinized? I think most of these people end up accepting their assigned gender roles with minor conflict, or cross-dress, perform as drag queens or become androgynous.

In my personal situation, I know that I like my male self, and my male body, and my male sexuality, but I do like some feminine things(never in a sexual binge purge way though). I've really tried to question myself...imagine a female body, ect., but I know that it would just not fit for me. Sometimes I wish my explanation were that simple. There are not just transsexuals/not transsexuals...and if there were then I wouldn't exist.

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Posted

Hello,

I just want everyone to know that when I was younger I was in denial that I was TS. I therefore found myself labeling my self as a CD so I would not think of going through all the difficulities of transition.

How wrong I was. One day it happened all at once. I became the woman that I am now with all the surgery.

I'm not saying that this is the case of all CDs. All the symptoms were there since I was 3 yrs old.

Yes I think this can happen..

Sheila

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Posted

I am in the same kind of situation but with a twist. I will go through peaks of excitement and dress more heavily than I normally do (I have recently thrown away all of the old 'male underwear' I had) and build myself up to climax. Afterwards I do fill dirty and not much like dressing again. I have always imagined what it would be like to have a pair of panties 'fit' me properly all over without the need to tuck. I have also wanted to have my own pair of breasts instead of having to stuff my bra with silicone breastforms. Where the twist comes in is that fact that although I want to do this, I don't like the permanent solution of SRS. I have experimented with mild to moderate hormones and liked the results I was getting, especially in the breast area, I am nearly an A cup and can still hide that well under a t-shirt, my nipples are not too large. I have considered myself a crossdresser but it seems lately that the description of crossdresser does not apply to me. I like to wear womens clothes but I don't want to look like a woman. I would like to have my own natural breasts (I would be happy with a C or D cup, I am 6'3", 245 pounds) but sometimes a situation may come up that I don't want them. Society just doesn't seem to have any place in public for an obvious man with large breasts walking around.

I am very confused and at times, I just feel like going through with some heavier hormones and settle the mental discussion right there. Although it gets in the way sometimes, I still like the maleness of me, but I definately have a feminine side that seems to want to overtake the maleness. In my mind at all times is this conflict. I have managed to keep it in the back of my thoughts but when I am not mentally occupied with something, the conflict comes back to the surface and I am forced to deal with it. I have never really considered myself a full woman but a good part of one. I have never followed the stereotypical male persona that society tried to make me but have chosen to be more mellowed out and a logical thinker. While my friends were out at parties hitting on every girl they saw, I would just hang out and if anyone wanted to talk to me, I would almost hold the conversation with her through the night.

No one in my family or circle of friends knows that I crossdress but I have set a new years resolution date of January 1, 2006 to 'come out' of the closet. I really don't have any idea how my family will react but I am tired of having to hide myself from my family. I am a very outgoing person and have decided that I don't like having to hide a major influencer of my life. Hopefully all goes well, I have heard horror stories of families shuning the transvestite. I think, probably like most of you out there, that it takes a lot of nerve to disclose something like that to people you have known for a while. You are basically opening a large section of the book that is you to the outside world for a peak, emotionally you are giving your all to share this part of you. I think that could be why it stings so much if the person or persons you disclose yourself to, hurts you by not realizing exactally what it took for the disclosure in the first place. My thoughts on the coming out are that if I can do that, I can finally let the guard that I have put up down some. I have walled myself up and am starting to suffocate emotionally. Maybe after I tell all, I can proceed with whatever my mind feels is right, at least I wont have to worry about the reactions anymore from my family and friends. The rest of the world will eventually come around but I am not going to wait and hold my breath until that happens.

Sorry for the rambling novel but I have never really had anyone to talk to about my feelings. I tried to join Tri-Ess but the 'recruiter' that I was talking to, all of a sudden, just stopped responding to me. I have tried many times to open up the line of communication but this person has silently refused to go any further with me. I never even made it to my first interview. I can not and will not go to a psychiatrist simply because I don't have the money and everyone I have chatted online say that the vast majority of them are not equipped with the knowledge to deal with the situation.

Well thanks for taking the time to read this and I will be posting more on this site later.

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Posted

David,

Welcome to the Forums! :)

Thank you for your wonderfully thoughful post, and for opening up about your life. It is never easy to tell of our deepest fears and to expose the soul. I commend you on your courage today.

Perhaps Tri-Ess is not the only support available in your area. If you tell me the largest nearby city to you, I will do my best to find resources for you, gladly.

Annie

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Dear Annie,

Thank you for responding to my post. I live in Thurmont, Maryland, the nearest large city to me is Frederick, Maryland. You might have better luck finding something in Baltimore but that is quite a drive for me. I hope there is something nearby as I find it to be quite a relief being able to talk to like minded individuals.

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I am in the same kind of situation but with a twist.  I will go through peaks of excitement and dress more heavily than I normally do (I have recently thrown away all of the old 'male underwear' I had) and build myself up to climax.  Afterwards I do fill dirty and not much like dressing again.  I have always imagined what it would be like to have a pair of panties 'fit' me properly all over without the need to tuck.  I have also wanted to have my own pair of breasts instead of having to stuff my bra with silicone breastforms.  Where the twist comes in is that fact that although I want to do this, I don't like the permanent solution of SRS.  I have experimented with mild to moderate hormones and liked the results I was getting, especially in the breast area, I am nearly an A cup and can still hide that well under a t-shirt, my nipples are not too large.  I have considered myself a crossdresser but it seems lately that the description of crossdresser does not apply to me.  I like to wear womens clothes but I don't want to look like a woman.  I would like to have my own natural breasts (I would be happy with a C or D cup, I am 6'3", 245 pounds) but sometimes a situation may come up that I don't want them.  Society just doesn't seem to have any place in public for an obvious man with large breasts walking around. 

I am very confused and at times, I just feel like going through with some heavier hormones and settle the mental discussion right there.  Although it gets in the way sometimes, I still like the maleness of me, but I definately have a feminine side that seems to want to overtake the maleness.  In my mind at all times is this conflict.  I have managed to keep it in the back of my thoughts but when I am not mentally occupied with something, the conflict comes back to the surface and I am forced to deal with it.  I have never really considered myself a full woman but a good part of one.  I have never followed the stereotypical male persona that society tried to make me but have chosen to be more mellowed out and a logical thinker.  While my friends were out at parties hitting on every girl they saw, I would just hang out and if anyone wanted to talk to me, I would almost hold the conversation with her through the night.

No one in my family or circle of  friends knows that I crossdress but I have set a new years resolution date of January 1, 2006 to 'come out' of the closet.  I really don't have any idea how my family will react but I am tired of having to hide myself from my family.  I am a very outgoing person and have decided that I don't like having to hide a major influencer of my life.  Hopefully all goes well, I have heard horror stories of families shuning the transvestite.  I think, probably like most of you out there, that it takes a lot of nerve to disclose something like that to people you have known for a while.  You are basically opening a large section of the book that is you to the outside world for a peak, emotionally you are giving your all to share this part of you.  I think that could be why it stings so much if the person or persons you disclose yourself to, hurts you by not realizing exactally what it took for the disclosure in the first place.  My thoughts on the coming out are that if I can do that, I can finally let the guard that I have put up down some.  I have walled myself up and am starting to suffocate emotionally.  Maybe after I tell all, I can proceed with whatever my mind feels is right, at least I wont have to worry about the reactions anymore from my family and friends.  The rest of the world will eventually come around but I am not going to wait and hold my breath until that happens.

Sorry for the rambling novel but I have never really had anyone to talk to about my feelings.  I tried to join Tri-Ess but the 'recruiter' that I was talking to, all of a sudden, just stopped responding to me.  I have tried many times to open up the line of communication but this person has silently refused to go any further with me.  I never even made it to my first interview.  I can not and will not go to a psychiatrist simply because I don't have the money and everyone I have chatted online say that the vast majority of them are not equipped with the knowledge to deal with the situation.

Well thanks for taking the time to read this and I will be posting more on this site later.

That was a wonderful and inspiring post, Thank you for sharing it with us. Gender is definiately not a black and white issue.

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Posted

I take a different tack on this one, based in large part on my own experiences.

I knew from very early on that I was a woman, but didn't know that it was possible for a boy to be a girl inside, so I tried to hid it and repress it. Yet I still enjoyed putting on women's clothes even long before beginning adolescence, when I was six or seven.

Throughout my teens and 20's, the only relief I found was through dressing in women's clothes, and the more I did it, the less I found a need to masturbate, which was pleasing, because the physical pleasure was nice, but the reminder that I was physically male kept me from ever really enjoying it except in the moment.

I didn't want to be transsexual, I wanted to be normal, so I sorta compromised by feeding my desire to be female a little bit now and then by dressing female, which gave me a bit of relief, but only temporarily.

Here's the weird part. Since I've started taking hormones and getting electrolysis, the compulsion for dressing has gone way, way down. Because I feel more female in my body, I don't need the external confirmatiion any more.

My point here is that perhaps, for some MTF transsexuals, crossdressing is a symptom of repressed transsexuality, a stage we go through on our way to discover our true selves, while for true crossdressers, the inner self is male, but needs a bit of release from the male role once in a while.

Just a thought.

Kathleen

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Dear Annie,

Thank you for responding to my post.  I live in Thurmont, Maryland, the nearest large city to me is Frederick, Maryland.  You might have better luck finding something in Baltimore but that is quite a drive for me.  I hope there is something nearby as I find it to be quite a relief being able to talk to like minded individuals.

David,

Couldn't find much in your town, but I did locate some promising URLs about resources in Frederick. Hope these help:

TG Resources, Frederick, Md.

Annie

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Posted

Great post Annie. I find it troubling when transsexual ladies dismiss crossdressers as simply men with a fetish. I can't speak for the motivation of others, but for me I have progressed pass the fetish stage, yet I am not transsexual. I consider myself to be bi-gendered; that is I clearly possess characteristics of both sexes. After 31 years of fighting guilty feelings, I have finally achieved a comfortable balance between the two genders. With all that I love about my femme side though, in my soul I remain happily male.

Cheers,

Jocelyn

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Posted

davidt and kathleenM those are great stories - wonderful to read. reading that i can totally relate. thanks

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well my personal experiance, was CDing was just fun at a younger age, and as i grew the possability of getting found out is what arroused me, like if i would hear footssteps comeing closer, now... well not to much can get it up and keep it there anymore....lol, im not complaining though... just my personal experiance, that it was the thrill of being found doing something i wasnt soposed to... like a couple haveing sex in an elevator... only not illegal...

~Dia

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Hi Annie.

This is very good topic for discussion and it may help many find their way through such a complex issue. Your thoughts are interesting, as are the replies from our sisters. I wish that I had such information when I was growing up.

I am glad that I can post as a guest, because I have yet another slant on the story.

I grew up in the fifties and have been dressing since I was little. My mom and older sister dressed me up for Halloween and I've been dressing since. I identify as a CD.

When I would dress, I became a girl, but always had this faint identification that I was still a boy dressing as a girl. I did find that thrilling and nothing matched the feeling of becoming my sister's sister and my mom and dad's new daughter. For me, it was more than serious play. I acted like a girl, they gave me my girl name and called me by it, I had all of my own clothes and I even got to go out dressed. My extended family knew Marjorie, as did the neighbors. I dressed whenever I wanted and often, didn't wear boys clothes at all, for extended periods. I had long hair when it wasn't fashionable and then when it was. I wore my nail polish off. It was idyllic, compared to the experiences of others. No one made a big deal out of it, even though society frowned on it. But, I also still did the boy stuff and seemed to always be able to get back to "normal". I never denied my true gender.

When I approached puberty, I feminized, instead of masculinized. I grew breasts and hips and put on weight. My voice became a soprano. I thought that I was turning into a girl, but didn't really worry too much about it. I always looked like a girl, but now, I really looked like one. The family doctor said that it was baby fat and I'd grow out of it. It was exciting, because my mom gave me bra to wear, when she first noticed. I skipped the training size and went right into a "B". She also gave me a pair of nylons, so I shaved my legs, put on big-girl make-up and graduated to a new level of dressing. For the first time, I was dressed like woman, and it even caused my mom to think about what was going on. Suddenly, there was a young woman standing in front of her, asking for acceptance. I could tell she was uneasy about it.

I also started to be troubled though, as I was desperate for information on why I was the only boy who did these things, and discovered an article on homosexuality. Some of the boys in the artilce were dressed as girls and I accepted that I must be that and set back waiting to start liking boys. I waited and waited, but it never happened. I passionately loved girls! Then, I learned about Christine Jorgenson and thought that I was a transexual and waited for that to develop, but it never did either. This would have been an ideal time for someone else to transition. I never even considered it.

My self discovery process taught me what it means to be a CD like me. I just loved to dress like a girl and have that total emersion into femininity, for as long as I wanted it, and then change back. My alter-egos are different people though. Ones a girl (but without the sexual component), ones a boy (with!).That has gone on ever since. I love both worlds.

Now, as I am aging and testosterone levels are falling, my body is back to being a little feminine. My breasts are no longer hidden by muscle tissue and are the same "B" size. My backside has "fallen" to form a nice derrier. I am still as happy to dress, as ever and have not changed. For me, this is all there is to it. I dress mostly when I want and have a supportive and educated wife. Looking good as a woman does it for me.

Thanks for the opportunity to contribute, Marjorie

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Hi Marjorie!

Just to let you know, there are some guys here, so not everyone here is a 'sister'.

Also; have you ever thought that you might have an intersex condition? The way you describe puberty isn't exactly typical of your average genetic male, there may be some chromosomal anomalies at play.

Intersexed or not, congratulations on being yourself throughout your life and my you continue to find happiness. :)

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Hi Jo'C,

Thanks for the "catch" on "sisters". Correction humbly accepted.

As far as being intersexed, I have had at least 2 tests over the years that should have found it but neither did. My point in mentioning the high estrogen levels was in contrast to the high testosterone levels mentioned in the first note. In my case, it may have been due to the normal differencec in growth due to hormones and being slightly over weight (fat produces estrogen). Later, when I bloomed late, testosterone took care of eveything. In old age, that gets undone again, which is normal but subject the the same variation among individuals.

To support Annies observations, there was a CD who a while ago made all of the Talk-Shows, local and national who described herself as "the garden variety transvestite" who never wanted to actually change sex. She eventually did. Her experience seems to mirror Annies.

Even though I have had parallel experiences, my feelings seem to still be different. I continue to have the passion to dress as a woman, but do not want to be one.

Thanks for being so kind,

Marjorie

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In my arrogant opinion, ;) nobody changes from being a CD to a TS. There are plenty of people who appear to change, but it is only the outer appearances that changed. What you are inside is what you are inside, even when mislabled.

Given that idea, there are an aweful lot of mislabeled people out there. The reason is the criteria we use to categorize CDs and TSs include both things that are permanent and things that are temporary. For example, the age at which you started crossdressing doesn't change after the fact. It's a constant. Whether you experience sexual arrousal when dressed is something that can and does change.

This points out that some of the criteria are, at best, predictors rather than iron-clad criteria.

From my observation, the best perdictor I have seen so far is whether you wanted to stand up or sit down when urinating as a kid. Other people's mileage may vary.

And of course there's to old joke: What's the difference between a CD and a TS? Three years.

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Posted

Lisbeth?

Stand or sit is the litmus?

Well, my dear, I am Annie, and I stand. I've discussed this with women friends and have been told that if they had the ability to stand and urinate, they would. It's a question of convenience, not sexual identity. Sitting doesn't make you female. :)

As to your first opinion . . . My piece was an exploration of how I knew myself to be female, unshakeably so, yet the act of dressing or imagining myself with the correct anatomy caused a physical reaction that was most confusing.

There's an old set of videotapes called Faces Of Death. In Volume 3, there is actual footage of an SRS procedure done in Singapore. In spite of the graphic nature of that footage it too caused arousal whenever I watched it. Good Lord, I'm not bragging about this-- I just still want to know why I can have such a history and yet now live contentedly as female.

And to modify that saying, in my case, the difference between CD and TRANSITION was about 35 years. ;)

Annie

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More power to you, Annie! :D I never said it was a litmus.

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