Breeding For God

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Posted

Breeding For God

As Arthur Brooks of Syracuse University recently wrote in the Wall Street Journal, "if you picked 100 unrelated politically liberal adults at random, you would find that they had, between them, 147 children. If you picked 100 conservatives, you would find 208 kids. That's a 'fertility gap' of 41 per cent. Given that about 80 per cent of people with an identifiable party preference grow up to vote the same way as their parents, this gap translates into lots more little Republicans than little Democrats to vote in future elections."

(For those of you who know some linear algebra, run a Markov chain and see what happens.)

Natural selection is favoring the conservative, which could offset any gains we make. And I can't imagine conservatives will tolerate people like us.

So, what do you all think?

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Posted

First off, Conservative does *NOT* equal closed mindedness. Also, for that matter, you can't simply cherry pick comments like this. This site avoids politics, but I am under no illusion that, in all likelihood, the overwhelming majority here would be considered liberal, and some even 'far left.' I don't care really about that, but, again, there's other facts that are ignored. Such as, liberals tend to respect marriage and the waiting till marriage to have children less than conservatives. Its not to say *all* liberals dont respect marriage, or that even ALL liberals feel less strongly about marriage and a family unit than conservatives, but if I didnt explain that much, the statement I made would speak that point exactly.

This comment is of no exception. Again, The Conservative Republican Party, in its infancy, was indeed rooted in Judeo-Christian faith, but it was more focus on *LESS* government and *MORE* personal freedoms. They believed the government should only provide security and national upkeep such as road maintenance and simple programs to assist those between jobs or who hit hard times, but not to pay for someone to be a job snob. I myself don't like to bring politics in here, but I feel many liberals have a *MUCH* more negative view of Conservatives and Republicans than the Republicans have of liberals. Just like how not all liberals are criminals and looney crooks like Nancy Peluosi or that money-thieving, Anti-American, Pro-Communist jack-a$$ George Soros, not all conservatives are religion-based hate mongers like that crazy over in Salt Lake City or Jerks who think all liberal views are useless, such as Sean Hannity.

Sorry if I seem like I am bothered by this, but the fact is, well, I am. The anti-conservative bias I've seen in the youth and especially in the GLBT community really speaks of the same ignorance and judgement they accuse conservatives of.

For what its worth as well, I come from a family of Republicans who are very supportive, interested in what I'm going through, and more open minded than many of the more liberal friends I have. Thats why its usually best to give everything independent and objective analysis.

To answer the question, no, I don't see this being an issue. Most people are influenced by parental political leanings, but we're all responsible for our own decisions and I know many who have come from conservative families and are insanely left wing, and those who came from far left families who, as adults, have become so right wing, I can't even stand to discuss politic with them.

Just be careful of political bias. I can tell you this much, not to cast stones, but the left has just as much flaw and misdirection as many on the right do, in fact, its close, but the left have held responsibility for more failures than the right. Not many more, but still enough. Afterall, when Bush was 'enjoying' an uncomfortably low approval rating of 24%, the *Democratic Majority* Congress had a 12% approval rating. Again, not surprised if you didn't catch that in the news- because while its out there if you search for it- The Major News networks won't *dare* say something awful about the liberal side of politic. Well, Fox News would, but aside from a few news shows, that place is also full of lunacy, just from the opposite side.

And yes, I am a Conservative-leaning Libertarian and a registered Republican. That said, I am already proof that this thought process that Conservative = dangerous is foolish, unfounded, and usually a nasty knee-jerk reaction that is much akin to the same nasty knee-jerk reaction the loonies on the right wing have about certain liberal ideas.

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Posted

Thanks, Girl Inside, for bringing this to the forum. Thanks, Ashlee, for trying to balance things. I'm a liberal but I'm not going to comment about the current quote. Instead, let's take a historical perspective.

The statistics cited are probably true. In fact they have probably been true for at least several generations. The current connotations of 'liberal' and 'conservative' to describe social beliefs seem to me to have arisen since World War II; I'm thinking ot the "No Nukes", "Peace", "Civil Rights", "Womens' Liberation" and "Gay Rights" Movements in particular. In terms of economic beliefs, socialism and capitalism have been duking it out for more than a century. A conclusion I draw from all this is that the conservative population has been increasing for quite some time.

Yet compare the relative progress of these two general views. The "Left" has won battles in all of those movements. They simply haven't been outvoted, they've convinced people their causes are moral, just and right. Of course, the "Right" has won battles, too, but more often in reaction to previous "Left" victories; I cite Welfare Reform, reduction of Affirmative Action and continued militarism as my examples.

So, the quote is another example of reductionism. It oversimplifies the world to produce a positive model that the population can accept as truthful. It's a dishonest practice, IMO, but it has worked since "like forever, man" and continues to work today.

My point is that there is no point extrapolating one statement by one proponent of one view to the future of the real world. This time, IMO, it's not worth worrying about. Even if it's true, the "Left" can counter it in some other way. For me, it's "wait and see" and work for my beliefs in the meantime.

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Posted

What do I think?

Perhaps we shouldn't get into political subjects here, as all it does is tend to polarize, and nothing ever gets resolved.

Annie

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Posted

Sorry. Just defending the case that Conservative does not equal closed minded. Conservatives *can* be closed minded, but that's a stereotype. No better than saying all Whites are racist, that all African Americans are thugs and crack addicts, and all Latinos are here illegally. The only difference is, NO ONE ever stands up for conservatives. Forgive me for reaching my point where I had to step in.

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Posted

First off, Conservative does *NOT* equal closed mindedness. Also, for that matter, you can't simply cherry pick comments like this. This site avoids politics, but I am under no illusion that, in all likelihood, the overwhelming majority here would be considered liberal, and some even 'far left.' I don't care really about that, but, again, there's other facts that are ignored. Such as, liberals tend to respect marriage and the waiting till marriage to have children less than conservatives. Its not to say *all* liberals dont respect marriage, or that even ALL liberals feel less strongly about marriage and a family unit than conservatives, but if I didnt explain that much, the statement I made would speak that point exactly.

This comment is of no exception. Again, The Conservative Republican Party, in its infancy, was indeed rooted in Judeo-Christian faith, but it was more focus on *LESS* government and *MORE* personal freedoms. They believed the government should only provide security and national upkeep such as road maintenance and simple programs to assist those between jobs or who hit hard times, but not to pay for someone to be a job snob. I myself don't like to bring politics in here, but I feel many liberals have a *MUCH* more negative view of Conservatives and Republicans than the Republicans have of liberals. Just like how not all liberals are criminals and looney crooks like Nancy Peluosi or that money-thieving, Anti-American, Pro-Communist jack-a$$ George Soros, not all conservatives are religion-based hate mongers like that crazy over in Salt Lake City or Jerks who think all liberal views are useless, such as Sean Hannity.

Sorry if I seem like I am bothered by this, but the fact is, well, I am. The anti-conservative bias I've seen in the youth and especially in the GLBT community really speaks of the same ignorance and judgement they accuse conservatives of.

For what its worth as well, I come from a family of Republicans who are very supportive, interested in what I'm going through, and more open minded than many of the more liberal friends I have. Thats why its usually best to give everything independent and objective analysis.

To answer the question, no, I don't see this being an issue. Most people are influenced by parental political leanings, but we're all responsible for our own decisions and I know many who have come from conservative families and are insanely left wing, and those who came from far left families who, as adults, have become so right wing, I can't even stand to discuss politic with them.

Just be careful of political bias. I can tell you this much, not to cast stones, but the left has just as much flaw and misdirection as many on the right do, in fact, its close, but the left have held responsibility for more failures than the right. Not many more, but still enough. Afterall, when Bush was 'enjoying' an uncomfortably low approval rating of 24%, the *Democratic Majority* Congress had a 12% approval rating. Again, not surprised if you didn't catch that in the news- because while its out there if you search for it- The Major News networks won't *dare* say something awful about the liberal side of politic. Well, Fox News would, but aside from a few news shows, that place is also full of lunacy, just from the opposite side.

And yes, I am a Conservative-leaning Libertarian and a registered Republican. That said, I am already proof that this thought process that Conservative = dangerous is foolish, unfounded, and usually a nasty knee-jerk reaction that is much akin to the same nasty knee-jerk reaction the loonies on the right wing have about certain liberal ideas.

I enjoyed reading your post, Ashlee. You make a lot of positive points. I am a registered independent who sees merits of both Democratic and Republican parties. I have talked with many conservative folks who are very open minded. I have a better understanding of where they stand on issues than I do, at times, with liberals. To me the most important thing is to respect each person for who they are. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I always respect that.

Gennee

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Posted

This sounds like another case of somebody pulling statistics out of their you-know-what to me. I guess the author of that article never heard of children rebelling against the beliefs of their parents... or making their own choices in the world.

Both of my parents were far-right wing conservatives. I personally never embraced that ideology, although my sister very much did. Moving on to the next generation, my sister and BIL decided to home-school their two children (both of whom are grown now) in order to ensure that they would grow up with the same value system as their parents. My nephew continues to embrace a conservative Christian world view, my niece does not.

One of my closest and dearest friends (and also a mentor of mine) is a conservative Christian man who perceived a great deal of hypocrisy in his parent's liberal world view and lifestyle. Likewise, I was turned off by what I saw as blatant bigotry and hatred that was expressed in my own parent's belief system, and here I am basically a liberal atheist. However, my friend and I can both clearly see the mechanisms by which we arrived at our own respective world-views. As it turns out, we are both probably a little more middle-of-the-road (and flexible) than either of us would ever have guessed had we based our interactions simply on religious beliefs / party affiliation -- and the attendant rhetoric that goes along with those things -- on both sides of the fence.

~Shannon

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Posted

I think what articles like that say and those who come up with the statisics forget is that everyone is an individual and think for themselves regardless of how one is raised.As Shannon pointed out she was raised by parents who think oneway yet she thinks and believes differently then them.

As for breeding for God Muslim,Christain and all the others,reality and facts show that even if one is raised to believe a certain way,that even among them their are differences.So if their are differences.Like gay Muslim being persecuted by other Muslims and gay Christains being persecuted by other Christains and so on.This shows their maybe breeding for God going on but the mentality and intellect of humanity is growing as well due to gaining knowledge and understanding of things.

From what I've observed more people are becoming spirtual or more so and believing in God in oneway or another but not holding to or claiming any religious denomination.

Essentially showing those who would scorn and ridicule others for who they are,isn't intelligent and is pointless.In regard to advancing belief and awareness of God.

Dee

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Posted

Right wing and left wing are just far too much of an over-simplification. I mean, I'm generally considered very left wing, but even though I'm anti war Is till think that Canada needs to spend a lot more on its military, a typically "right-wing" sentiment. I also know my fair share of gay people who vote Conservative. The Conservative party of Canada is generally against gay rights, so this finds them alienated from both the gay and Conservative communities. But while they may not agree with some "right-wing" idiologies (ie. gay=evil) they support others (ie. small government, free market trade, ext.)

It is also possible to find a great deal of predjudice among the left-wing world. Has anybody seen the movie Religulous? If any person of faith had taken the stance against religions that Bill Mahr did they would be branded bigots of the highest order. There is just too much complexity to brand one side good or bad, because, well, there really aren't too sides, there are more than we can even count.

And other interesting figgure I found somewhere is that people with lower IQs and lower levels of education tend to breed significantly more than intelligent people with higher levels of education. Unfortunately, I don't recall the source. But perhaps being smart isn't all it's cracked up to be. From an evolutionary standpoint the cockroach is far more successful than we are, and they aren't exactly known for there intellectual contributions. Also; take into account that the average IQ of trans people has been said to be slightly higher than the general population, though many of us willingly cut ourselves out of the gene pool. Natural selection does not bode well for intelegence.

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Posted

There is just too much complexity to brand one side good or bad, because, well, there really aren't too sides, there are more than we can even count.

When it comes to politics I agree.But when when it comes to humanity theirs only two,good people and bad people.Sure theirs some who say theirs a gray area.But those who say that seem to be the ones who want to cause conflict and confusion.Either people are good to one another dispite differences and the diversity humanity has or one chooses to destroy the diversity humanity has according to their personal or organizational beliefs.

Dee

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Posted

ashlee--

My comment wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, but was answering the initial post's specific question.

Sorry if you felt I was singling you out. I wasn't.

Annie

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Oh not in the least, no worries! :)

I just felt bad bringing politik into it and wanted to reiterate that Im not promoting a side, just that its distressing that many are branded wrong just by being a republican or conservative, much like how many of us are branded wrong simply for being trans. Both groups have stereotypes, and as a member of both groups, I was just stating the hypocrisy of the statement made initially. :)

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WE all want to be recognised and accepted into some group , we tend to follow the path we are sent down when we are young but as we become more self awair we are often set to another course by some small thing that catches our eye.....OOOHHH look something shinny lets go over there and then we get rapped up with it for a time , once the new wears off we go back to the middle and waite for the next distraction....It seams to me that politics is that shiney thing right now.... Good job lets through another glittery thing in the ring ...please....

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Dee_is_me, I can't say I agree that there are only good an bad people in the world. Some people may show overwealming acceptance of people at one moment, only to turn around and be horrible to somebody else. Or perhaps they treat the same group differently under different circumstances. I believe that moral ambiguity only becomes more prevalent as things become more personal, not less.

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But when when it comes to humanity theirs only two,good people and bad people.

No offense Dee, but IMHO this dichotomy seems to be one of the primary driving forces behind many forms of xenophobia and prejudice, i.e., "if they are not with us they are against us". Dividing the world into "good guys" and "bad guys" is a not only a naive oversimplification, it also automatically closes the door to any constructive dialog and/or compromise. Such rationale simply assumes that the other side is "the enemy," and nothing good ever comes of that.

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Girl inside,

Ideological labels, especially in the Obama era, increasingly are less relevant in this country. As Barack Obama has often, correctly in my opinion, noted most people in this country prefer policies that are effective, not necessarily those that are "liberal" or "conservative." The statistics you referred to may not be accurate and in any event apparently do not include moderates, who are largely independents, and about one-third of the people.

Young people, late teens to early thirties, overwhelmingly voted for Obama and are more tolerant on same-sex marriage, as well as gender identity. Many political commentators have said the vast majority of these young people who voted for him are unlikely, at least in the near future, to vote Republican. While not all conservatives are narrow-minded bigots, many are, although the small libertarian wing of the GOP tends to oppose government regulation of private lives. Some people who tend to be liberal on social and economic issues are conservative on some cultural issues, such as same sex marriage. African-Americans voted overwhlemingly in California in support of banning gay marriage. Persons of any ethnic background can be racists or prejudiced in various ways. So we must be wary of strict stereotypes in certain respects about "liberals" and "conservatives."

The conservatives and Republicans in this country are currently in the minority, defensive and are widely perceived to lack relevance to the concerns of most people. However, this was also supposedly true after the 1964 election and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the Watergate scandal.

The Obama-Biden transition website specifically stated they would consider applicants to presidential appointments regardless of gender orientation or gender identity. Progress is being made in this country, albeit slowly, in attaining greater tolerance for transgendered persons.

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the Conservatives, actually, when asked ideologically, still actually are the majority. Again, who you vote for doesn't define your politic. I switched to a Dem to vote for Obama in the Primaries, and planned to vote for him until his policies began to take shape close to the election. I voted John McCain. I am neither a bigot, nor closed minded. One of my biggest supporters during ALL of this is a self-defined staunch conservative who voted McCain and can't stand Barack.

The problem here is, liberal and conservative politic has turned this into and 'us vs them' ideology. Liberals often times, actually, will rally behind our cause, then cut us from the bills and legislation once its all said and done. Both sides of politics do it, and if the conservative party was overwhelmingly accepting, Im sure they'd easily placate our egos for our votes.

What ends up happening is, people thinking that ONLY liberal politicians can save us. That if we vote republican, or conservative, we are in turn dooming our futures. This is NOT true. There are many conservatives, friendly to our plight, and even a few who ran as trans women, AS the Republican Candidate! Political ideologies were never to be focused on our social lives. It was to govern internal affairs, taxation, and how exactly were we going to structure the government to compensate and budget for things like unemployment, road, national defense, etc. However, thanks to a few zealots on the right side, having their soap box and megaphone handy, it is widely, and incorrectly, thought that Democrats are about us, and Republicans hate us.

This is SO terribly untrue, that its sad to think that many even here probably still believe that, and no amount of information will ever sway them, they are already indoctrinated soldiers of the left. The same can be said of some right wingers, but those tend to be quite dense and not terribly well at thinking for themselves. WE are wise people. We have experienced life in a way no one else but us truly can. Because of such, we gain wisdom that we otherwise would not have had. Because of that, it saddens me to think that many of us, as wise as we are, could fall for the BS argument that Democrats care about all of us, but Republicans would rather euthanize or banish us.

I've voted libertarian, democrat, conservative, and even independent. Each case requires independent analysis, and frankly, no side has it 100% correct, so therefore, I stay in the middle. I know we wanted to keep politic out of this, but again, Im here to bust fallacies and wrong facts. Conservatives, like it or not, are still in the majority, its just many, much like myself, find themselves more at middle ground than anything.

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Posted

I have to admit, I kind of liked McKain. I think his main problem was that he lacked charisma. Obama simply has a much more inspiring stage presence. I think that's why he chose Sarah Palin as his vice. She had an interesting personality an life story. Unfortunately, I think she hurt his creditability in the end. Really, these are shallow reasons for turning a vote, but people are easily swayed by shiny exteriors.

Still, I think that if I were American I would vote Obama.

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I do not think people should feel inhibited from occasionally discussing politics in this forum. One of the main ways we are to gain more widespread tolerance among the general public is through laws being enacted, guaranteeing those in the transgendered community more equal treatment and protection from discrimination. Politics, of course, is inherent in getting bills approved.

Polls taken on election day, as I recall, showed voters fairly evenly divided among those who considered themselves "liberals," "moderates," and "conservatives." A liberal "Washington Post" columnist after the election cited this poll and Obama's victory to describe this as a "left-center" country. I wrote a comment to his article saying the poll could just as easily be interpreted as this being a "center-right" nation.

Labels are misleading and arguably increasingly irrevelant. There is very little truly liberal or progressive in the Obama administration's domestic policy agenda. Any health care bill providing universal health care is very unlikely to be a government administered, single payer system as all or nearly every other developed country has. Corporate interests, most Democrats and Republicans seem to be beholden to, will prevent a European or Canadian style health care system in this country.

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I feel like the polacies of our representatives is misguided and at times very narrow minded they say they know what the constichuancy wants but they vote their own views and not that of those who put them into power, unfortunatly we mearly sit by shacking our heads and saying we'll get it next time... but the next time comes and knowing how these guys vote we still put them right back into office... Stop it you silly humans, vote them out not back in to make the same wrong turns they always take.

I also think that if with our infinite wisdom we ( our goverment and those of other nations ) could set down and find the great working policies and use them take the cruddy ones and flush them and better our societies this way instead they take the old nonsence approach of insanity and take the same old policies and run them through with a new shinney wrapper and call it new policy only to end up with the same results as before, sounds like insanity to me.

I like a good descusion I think this one is one and can only enlighten us further...

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Posted

But when when it comes to humanity theirs only two,good people and bad people.

No offense Dee, but IMHO this dichotomy seems to be one of the primary driving forces behind many forms of xenophobia and prejudice, i.e., "if they are not with us they are against us". Dividing the world into "good guys" and "bad guys" is a not only a naive oversimplification, it also automatically closes the door to any constructive dialog and/or compromise. Such rationale simply assumes that the other side is "the enemy," and nothing good ever comes of that.

I understand what you and Jo'c are saying,But it's not that I divided the world into two groups.When I say good people I mean people who understand life is full of diversity including humanity and do the best they can in this life growing,learning and gaining knowledge and understanding of the world in which we live,not wanting to control and try to force others to live as they feel others should.Allowing love,peace and diversity in which we live to live and grow without judging and trying to destroy it.

Where as bad people will do and say whatever they want regardless of anyone,anything or of the consequences their actions bring.Ignoring regardless of knowing of the diversity in which they live,hating and wanting to control and influence everyone and everything around them.And if they can't they will destroy or try to destroy anything they don't like or agree with regardless of knowledge and understanding.

If you want to use the term "if they are not with us they are against us".That's fine but,I wouldn't use that term knowing that many people can't be for or againist something unless they have knowledge and understanding first,and we know many are againist us and many other things without it.

I do not close the door to any constructive dialog and/or compromise.Those who are willing to constructive dialog and compromise (are good people) they want to gain knowledge and understanding before they make a judgement about something,knowing it's the intelligent thing to do.Where as bad people just don't care and do what I already stated and more.

You call it a naive oversimplification.It maybe an oversimplification but not naive.Their is no gray area between the truth and a lie,acceptance of knowledge or denying knowledge.Either one tells the truth and accepts knowledge or one lies and denies knowledge.Theirs either understanding or not understanding.Their is no in between.Love can not compromise to hate and compassion can't be conditional.

I hope I have clarified my meaning when I said that their is no gray area when I said theirs only good people and bad people for those who say theirs a gray area that is a place for those who have knowledge and understanding but haven't decided how to respond to it.

Dee

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Posted

Thank you for the clarification, Dee. Also, my apologies for reacting so harshly to your original post. I've just been dealing with a lot of that no-compromise "we're the good guys and you're just evil" crap with my own family lately, as well as my partner's family and I guess the wording you used just pushed my little red attitude button. Again, my apologies venting.

~Shannon

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Thank you for the clarification, Dee. Also, my apologies for reacting so harshly to your original post. I've just been dealing with a lot of that no-compromise "we're the good guys and you're just evil" crap with my own family lately, as well as my partner's family and I guess the wording you used just pushed my little red attitude button. Again, my apologies venting.

~Shannon

No apology necessary Shannon,you know I don't mince words.That's why it always aggravates me when I hear or read someone say,if this happens it means this,that and everything else will as well.Not only showing their prejudice and intolerance but their lack of knowledge and intelligence as well.When people say and act that way they push my

little red attitude button.Espiecally those who say a consentual relationship between two people can lead to this,that or the other which isn't consentual.

I'm sorry to hear you've been having trouble lately.I hope things calm down and get better.

Dee

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