This Shouldn't Be A Crime

19 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Russia lists transgender people among those unfit to drive

AP - By LYNN BERRY January 9, 2015 12:18 PM

MOSCOW (AP) — New Russian road safety regulations bar transsexuals, transvestites and others with sexual "disorders" from driving, ostensibly for medical reasons... Read the article online

Edited by Lori
Edited to comply with copyright lawas.
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Posted

Agree, 100%, of course. I actually posted this last night in the Humorous Forum. As I wrote there this morning that was not the best place to do it here but it seemed so utterly ridiculous when I came across it I felt that was where it belonged.

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Posted

It is comical that someone would be idiotic enough to consider such a thing. But sadly, Putin is a dangerously serious sort. I'm not entirely certain that this is the correct category for this post. I always struggle with the decision of where to put things i'd like to post. But i'm terrible with filling out forms for the same reason i think. My world isn't very cut and dried.

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Posted

I briefly read about this a few days ago. Not sure if I tripped up on it myself in wandering the web, or if I read about it after Emma posted it. No matter... I couldn't read it all because of the stupidity of the whole thing. Putin and his bunch all need to be run outta town.

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Posted

Unbelievable!

:o

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Posted

Can you please provide the actual legal documentation on this law?

I would love to go over it. As it would be very important to understanding laws around the globe that are facing against trans-folk.

I have yet to actually see this law.. I looked it up and it seems bogus and looks like another click bait story to draw traffic. I would seriously like to see the wording of such a law.

Maybe a thread can come from that, that list other (Actual legal documents) of laws passed around the globe against trans-folk.

I think it would be beneficial for a trans-folk/persons. to understand a know the actual legal wording and documents that are used against them.. News stories just don't cut it.

News stories is all propaganda and its she said he said stuff.

Which doesn't help anyone.

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Posted

I don't know if you can access Russian laws online, particularly english translations might be difficult to find. It was an Associated Press story written by Lynn Berry whose credentials can be perused here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Berry_%28Associated_Press_news_personality%29

You might be able to contact her through the Associated Press here:

http://www.ap.org/company/Contact-us

Shekhar Saxena, director of the Mental Health Department of the World Health Organization is referenced in the article and so probably informed. There might be a way to contact his department for further details through their web page here:

http://www.who.int/about/contacthq/en/

All things considered, i'm inclined to believe the article to be unfortunately credible. Challenging me to provide an english text of a russian law asks more of me than i am able to do. But hopefully the resources i was able to draw from the story will help you to find the material you're looking for. Research being meat and bread for a legal advocate, this must be right up your alley. I'm a retired handyman and must apologize for not being able to provide what you ask for.

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Posted

Hmmm, I read russian laws before. hehe. google translate helps a lot.

I just can't find the actual law that the story is referring to.

It would be helpful if they list the name or ref# of the law.

The story would been more helpful by providing links to the law.

Its silly that this person who wrote the story is the only person in the western world t to have seen it.

It would be expected that all laws of any country are public information or that would defeat the purpose of a law.

I am going to guess this russian law is public information as the writer of the story knows about it.

Contacting the writer is pointless.. sorry.

If this is just anti russian propaganda to support natos efforts in ukraine.. I am disgusted that trans-folk like us are being used as a shield/tool to push war..

FYI I have russian friends in russia they are gay and trans and they don't even bring this up. They live public lives as trans in russia so I really find this hard to believe.

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Posted

Russia gives green light for transgender drivers to stay on the road

By Liisa Tuhkanen

Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:41pm EST

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/14/us-russia-lgbt-driving-idUSKBN0KN23220150114

And yet another story can be found here:

http://www.advocate.com/world/2015/01/08/russia-now-says-trans-people-cant-have-drivers-licenses

You might ask your russian friends what they know about it or where to find the text of the law in question. I don't understand why you didn't go to them first rather than inquiring here. It would have saved me some apparently ineffectual googling that you might have done more effectively. I'm sorry you're having trouble finding it, but apparently it has been changed or rescinded? Probably it's still available somewhere, but i'm in no position to guarantee it.

It is unfortunate that humans will use all manner of things to justify and inspire populations to support a war. It's also unfortunate that humans rights around the world are subject to the same propaganda's to justify the manipulations of governmental agenda's as well as oppositional agenda's. And yes the press is used to disseminate such stuff, and they may fluff a story up to excite it's reception. But i imagine more often than not they are given or find the information rather than just make it up. I'm inclined to exclude FOX news from that given their history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies), but the AP and Reuters stringers who provide the information such stories are based upon have better reputations. The number of stories on the subject, and sources mentioned still strike me as credible. Apparently more than one silly person is aware of the subject.

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Posted

I did ask them. They told me they had no idea what I was talking about.

Anyways I would still like to see how they legally worded the part about trans-genders.

Even if it does exist it would be great to see how lawyer/politians worded it.

It would be helpful information so if another country tries to do a ban on trans-genders from x,y,z, we know how it is worded.

Which would allow them to bypass human rights laws.

Anyways thanks for the info :)

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Posted

Hi amanda.. and welcome to TGG.

1. That a person is not aware of any particular law does not mean that the particular law doesn't exist, so perhaps there is (or was) such a law, or such a law being proposed, and your friend just was not aware of it. I seriously doubt that the average citizen of any country is aware of every law of the land, at every governmental level.

2. Being that every country has a right to be run as the citizens of that country see fit, we cannot arbitrarily say that knowledge of a law in one country is detrimental to the well-being of the citizens in another country.

3. Being that we're talking about Russia, I personally would not be so confident in saying that their laws should be available for perusal online by those outside of Russia... IF they are even available online for their own citizens

4. On occasion, when off-the-wall proposals are made in the U.S., quite often the bill is referenced, and one can it. That is sensible - most of the members here are in the U.S. I'm sure a Russian site such as this one would probably do the same.

5. While news media does screw up on occasion, and of course there are the disreputable entities, I doubt that everything we read about need be challenged as just so much skuttlebutt or propaganda against trans people simply because we do not have a legal document to validate the content of an article.

6. Had this article been in some grocery store register rag... I could certainly understand your skepticism

7. As for the U.S., I would hope that lawmakers are just a tad smarter, and know that a law cannot be made to keep trans people from driving. However, that being said, driving is not a right... but a privilege. And privileges are alwasy easier to take away than rights. But I dare say for lawmakers to try that in the U.S., that could potentially be a slippery slope. True enough there are rights and privileges that the TGLB community is fighting for - rights and privileges we don't have. It's another thing to start tearing down those things that already exist.

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Posted

The story is a lie.

I can't find any source outside of the western media. Its pure propaganda most likely to demonize russia for stepping in and blocking our invasion of syria.

also i would like to point out that the russian invasion of ukraine is also total BS. Where are the thousands of tanks jets and millions of troops invading ukraine? I have not seen one picture/video. the human right watch report says its made up. there are russians there, but its special ops deep undercover. which what we do around the world with the CIA.

In that same report it says keiv is committing warcrimes and we are funding it all the way. Human rights watch has video of canadian and us snipers and special forces shooting and bombing towns in eastern ukraine. these people are just driving going about their business.

To quote a canadian spec ops troop in ukraine after bombing innocent people just driving around town "get that f'n camera out of my face."

http://www.hrw.org/n...mmitment-reform

http://www.hrw.org/w.../ukraine?page=2

Human right watch keeps track of all crimes against humanity and well documents crimes against trans people better then any country in the world. They provide evidence and links to there findings.

What bothers me is they are using trans-folk to push war.

Its disgusting.

So whats been replied to is just tea say is not proving that it exist at all.

I would like to point out that why is it that only the publishers of this story have seen this law.

All of these publishers are outside of russia.

So my question is how would they know?

They can't even in any of the stories post a link to where the law was seen or read.

If I said that the us government was trying pass a law outlawing bullet proof vests and helmets based only going on my words alone would you believe me?

Well you don't have to.

https://www.congress...e-bill/378/text

If you read the bill it only allows the police and government to have bullet proof vests.

So my question here is why would the us government want to prevent americans from buying something that they could protect them selves with?

in our last fiscal bill of 2015 past last month. we are giving these nazis 40 billion USD.

I will remind you nazis believe in killing all transgendered people.

I find this more alarming then banning someone from driving.

Another question i have more my sisters… Are you not bothered by our government funding and helping nazis?

The same people who would kill all trans-genders with out a second thought?

What about trans-genders in western ukraine? Who is protecting from a nazi controlled government?

Not nato or the EU or the USA.

I hope for the best on all sides.

All sides, russia and nato are bad and no one is the good guy here.

In war everyone loses.

I would prefer if we stopped all efforts to kill people in the sake of war.

In my personal opinion USA, EU, Nato should not be funding nazis.

Anyone who disagrees with that. Agrees with nazis, that all LGBT peoples should be killed and wiped out for simply existing.

Usernameoptional, I think your opinion is honest :)

I disagree with everything you said. Because we are free people and it is our responsibility to know the laws in our land and the places we travel to. Its common sense.

All laws are public or else how are governments expected to maintain order in any country.

I do a lot of traveling outside of the US and I am given a run down by customs at the airport in any country I visit to know the laws.

Usually it is in the form of a small booklet. Most jobs ask you to research local laws before working in those countries. If your visiting its your responsibility to know those laws by buying or taking out a book. Usually travel books have detailed instructions on what to know when traveling to said country.

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Posted

I guess wikipedia might be considered a tool of the western propaganda machine, but they are peer reviewed and appear to be aware of this issue...

On December 29, 2014, Russia received more criticism after enacting a road safety law that classified transsexualism—among other “sexual disorders”—as a mental condition that can prevent a person from being able to hold a driver’s license.

http://en.wikipedia...._note-135-FZ-51

As well, The Moscow Times seems to have noticed it, and appear to be a Russian paper with a Russian address and a lot of Russian sounding names in the list of staff. You can write to them for a copy of the law if it's available to just anyone who asks.

http://www.themoscow...ive/514156.html

http://www.themoscow...sia/514313.html

I have to question the suggestion that they're using trans folks to promote a drive to war. It's not like the west loves or cares about trans folks. And i believe it's an internet rule than once you trot out the nazi's, you've lost the argument, or at least raised the suspicions of folks that you're getting a bit dramatic.

Bad stuff happens, especially to trans folk, women, people of color, children, and helpless animals. America is not a bastion of morality, but then morality is as rare as "common" sense in my experience. I can hardly hold Russia to a different standard. As to traveling freely, all countries don't care about your demands for information or justice. Be safe out there, and assume nothing.

(edited for a bad link and further comments)

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Posted

http://www.newrepubl...nian-revolution

Why has this violent crime against the LGBT gone un-noticed by the western media?

The new nazi government my government is supporting is openly against and violently trying wiped out LGBT people.

Not one story and the event took place weeks ago.

Theres video of the damage from the attack.

Why is nato and the us supporting a country ruled by nazis posed to start violently wiping out LGBT people?

The russian invasion… the west said took over crimea was a base that the russians have in crimea since the 60's and as agreed upon the un treaty to bring down the berlin wall and end the cold war.

russia was allowed to keep its bases in crimea and the us and nato can keep there bases in the baltic and the around the black sea. It was a fair deal.

The us violated that treaty you can look up at the un.org

You can see how the us and nato violated the agreement. Also I would like to point out if russian bases in crimea in an invasion then by that same definition the us is invading japan, korea, germany italy, africa, act...

We need better education in the USA. :(

That site is a blog not a paper.

It is not even creditable.

:(

Why is it in english?

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Posted

Oh, well that explains why the west is using trans folk to justify war. I was completely fooled by the presentation of The Moscow Times being a news paper for the many english speaking people who work there for multinational business interests, NGO's, foreign government representatives, etc. The Russian born staff are probably working for the CIA. I'm sure the Russian government wouldn't be all over them for making stuff up. We let FOX do it, so that's reasonable. You clearly understand the world better than the rest of us. You might report me to the mods for causing the LGBT community so much trouble. And with that, they should probably close this thread for having been hijacked by a propagandist.

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Posted

offtopic.gif While we often allow threads to stray a bit... this thread has been dragged way off-topic.

Further posts on this thread should be discussion/debate about Russia [allegedly] considering transpeople to be among those not fit to drive, and how we as transpeople feel about such a thing.

-Michael

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Posted

So if you read the site at the bottom it says they shut down the site because of backlash...

If they are so big and powerful and supported by ngos why did they close down the comments?

If what they published is true then why shut it down?

Dear reader,

Due to the increasing number of users engaging in personal attacks, spam, trolling and abusive comments, we are no longer able to host our forum as a site for constructive and intelligent debate.

It is with regret, therefore, that we have found ourselves forced to suspend the commenting function on our articles.

The Moscow Times remains committed to the principle of public debate and hopes to welcome you to a new, constructive forum in the future.

Regards,

The Moscow Times

Also, why is this not in russian? I mean if its for russians why is it in english?

​They also failed to publish the law to what they were referring too.

Enough of these childish conspiracies, just post up the facts the with the law you are referring to. I have posted facts and even a law..

http://www.ebrd.com/downloads/research/news/lit092d.pdf

^According to russian laws... All laws are public.^

The fact not one of these media outlets you post could provide its readers with info or a link to the law is an insult to their readers.

If you can't keep this a mature convo and provide facts to what you are talking about your just being counter productive and spreading miss-info.

I gave you proof and facts to back up my claims.

Keep blaming russia and the boogieman for things that aren't true.

Mean while this is what our tax paying money is supporting. Nazis in kiev violently attacking the LGBT community and telling them to not join the government or to do it quietly or else.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117170/lgbt-rights-sidelined-after-ukrainian-revolution

READ IT^ Watch the video of the attack the LGBT community suffered because of the government we support in kiev.

When they start mass murdering the LGBT community in western ukraine, because that is what nazis do..

Its people like you who blindly followed propaganda and cheered it along.

You purposely ignored the links i posted that show real events not being covered, and defended a story that is completely made up.

With zero source material.

Btw Rt (russianTv news) never covered the story your referring too at all lol. They have the most viewers around the world.

I wonder why that russian news agency never reported it. Since that one did as you claim.

If you want to go off the deep end and play x-files you can do that by your self.

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Posted

I thought i was staying on topic, that being discrimination in Russia. You seem to want to talk about discrimination in America, which is a given, but doesn't negate discrimination in Russia either. Look, i found an article and posted it. It seems credible to me. But the article isn't about America or the Crimea.

The Moscow Times curtailed the comments section on the article in question, probably for the reasons given. I imagine a brawl between the haters and trans folk erupted. I've seen the same done in the American press. And I've seen it not done when it should have been, allowing the haters to take it over. I imagine it's in english because there are a lot of english speaking people there who want to keep up with the news. People who live and work there but were born somewhere else.

If you want to bump the discussion up to a larger more sinister picture, i suggest the inability of humanity to evolve psychologically faster than our technology. That we apparently can't people proof each other or our social organizations, that our intellect is used primarily to support our instinctive urges, it becomes entirely possible that we'll turn out to be evolutionary failures. We seem to be unreasoning and dangerous creatures. But i think that's another topic for a thread i don't think i'll start.

The point of the original post was a concern that trans folk were being included with folks who have mental health issues that could be dangerous on the road. There is a history around the world that continues to this day among people around the world that folks under the LGBT umbrella are either deranged or in league with "the" devil. I took the article for a reminder that human rights for trans folk are not a given, that vigilance, positive engagement, and education continue to be needful.

Perhaps you'd like to start a thread on the Crimean situation and or the handling of it by the U.S. In any case, whatever you think of me or the article, i'm done with it. Man's inhumanity to man is really much larger than either America or the Crimea, and it was never my intention to parse out the ways in which we do it. I'm glad trans folk are allowed to drive in Russia now.

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Posted

If it is anyone's belief that the information contained in the article brought to this forum is erroneous, that can be exposed simply and respectfully without attacking those who find articles they believe will be of interest to others, and by providing a direct link to the source which has uncovered the false report. It would be the responsibility of that source to prove how they came about the info instead of the thread becoming a platform for how something should or shouldn't be reported, and how what is reported should or shouldn't be validated - running a thread completely off-topic.

Once again, this thread has to do with Russia allegedly considering transpeople to be among those not fit to drive - not Nazis, who's funding wars, who's being used to fund wars, and whether or not a site allows/disallows comments.

Any further posts that are not discussion/debate about the topic, including whether one believes it was ever considered to keep Russian transpeople from driving or not, will be removed.

Forum Admin

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