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Thank you, I just feel so bad that I couldn't't find a place to give them better lives. If I had any doubts about the statistics of feral vs. household cats before, they are gone now, I never see the same cats more than two years around here. I think the five year average is a bigger area figure, and in my area it's much smaller. We just had to dig the body of a less than two year old feral kitten we watched grow up through the windows in our back yard (it's privacy fenced, they like hanging out in it) out from under our computer room after the smell became noticeable. Mama cat has moved them, and they are off to face their short lives. : ( At least Creed and Yuriko were saved, even with her sad end Yuriko lived 14 years and had a busy cat life bullying the daylights outta our dog and her brother.