JeffDad --

Despite all that's been said by those who've participated in this discussion, you stand firm in your belief that being trans is a choice, a "lifestyle."  And you are steadfast in your belief that we just "think" or "believe" that we are one gender or the other.

As for my example of the Sadie Hawkins dance, I wasn't out, so of course no one would have asked me to go.  If you had taken in what I wrote, it would have been clear that I suffered my situation alone and in silence.   I wasn't alone, friendless and without romantic relationships because people wanted nothing to do with a transgender man.  They didn't know I existed.

"If I was hearing happy stories.... positive life stories, fulfilling relationship stories.. happy family stories.... or anything that could even be construed as positive I may think differently."   ...   "I do not want this world for my daughter."  --JeffDad
Because of those who make life miserable for so many trans people ... why don't you consider becoming a part of CHANGE, so that your child DOESN'T feel isolated, different, unwanted, bullied, unhappy, etc.?  Starts with one cisgender person at a time.  Join a Straight/Gay Alliance.  Join a LGBTQ+ support group.  Join a transgender group.  I dunno where in Jersey you are, but I do know that in the tri-state area (NJ, eastern PA, southern NY) there are many groups that could be of help.  Become an activist.  Make this world better for your child... don't condemn the lot of us and call us delusional, and dismiss us with, "it's your choice," or "I believe that YOU believe your gender is _______."  We can fight for and hope to gain the same rights you have, but acceptance comes from the cisgender mainstream - from the ones who mandate the unwritten rules of society.  Let's take marriage equality for example:  same-sex marriage is legal now, BUT, that doesn't mean it's generally accepted.  Just means there were those that felt they finally had to do the right thing.   And it certainly doesn't mean that society now accepts gay people.  It takes the haters to change that.

Ya know what else isn't a choice?  Being born.  Your child didn't ask to be born.  In fact, he had no say what-so-ever in the matter.  And because he had no choice, those who brought him into this world should accept him in whatever way shape or form he turned out - without reservation.  And if everyone accepted everyone the way they are, there'd be no reason to worry.  This world will never be safe for anyone who is different until those who have issue with difference, change.  

I really wish we could be of more help.  I was hoping we could help you accept your child the way he is and understand that this is not a choice, a desire, a whim or a phase.  I wish all of you, especially your children, the best.  Maybe one day, they will be the ones to usher in an era where people are just people, and sex and gender are simply medical designations only, and not something to be used as licenses by others to hate or hurt, withhold equality, or deny happiness.

Good luck
-David Michael

3 hours ago, JeffDad said:

If I was hearing happy stories.... positive life stories, fulfilling relationship stories.. happy family stories.... or anything that could even be construed as positive I may think differently.  

JeffDad: Maybe I see your point. I know that I keyed off of your writings. It sounded to me like you were denying trans people their validity as trans and thus cast the same judgment on what your child is going through. So I (and we) responded:

- We tried to explain how hard it is to come out to parents, friends, relatives, to try to inspire some patience and sympathy toward your child.

- We explained the hard times we had as children and adults, here again trying to help you understand that your child needs your support and, without that, may very well commit suicide.

Michael's story certainly parallels mine. I'm 62 and have transitioned to being a trans woman after so many decades of depression, suicide attempts, therapists. and psychiatrists. I'm quite delighted to say that I've never been happier in my life, and it's not a euphoria. I'm old enough to know the difference. I love my life now presenting and being a woman in society. Do I have my ups and downs? Of course. 

You also wanted a positive relationship story. Last year my wife and I divorced after 20+ years of marriage. Here is what she wrote to me in May 2017:

Happy birthday my sweet _________,
Wish I could be there to celebrate your day.  And what a wonderful day it was 61 years ago when you arrived on this earth.  This is your year to celebrate yourself and become who you really are.  Be brave, be strong, be true, be honest in this journey.  Remember that I will aIways love you.  You are the finest person I have ever known and I thank God that you are in my life.
Have the best day ever.
Love, ______ 

We talk at least once/week for about an hour or two and always sign off with "I love you" because we do. She is going to visit me this Thanksgiving for a week and next year when I have my gender confirmation surgery she has already offered to come and help me with my recovery. But we will never have a marriage together again since she's not a lesbian. But we are committed to always support and love each other as best friends.

These days I'm having a terrific time joining lesbian hiking groups and others in a variety of activities. Making friends, perhaps meeting a dating partner. My life is wonderful and I no longer have suicidal ideations. 

As Michael wrote, being trans isn't a choice or lifestyle. None of us would have chosen to be trans but speaking for myself I would not wish to be a cisgender male. But that's not a choice either, is it? You and we and your child are what we are, and nothing you can say will change that. 

I am so worried about your son. I fear that if you remain so steadfast in your opinions that you will drive him away to repeat what so many of us have gone through. Wishing that he's not trans doesn't work. I suggest you open your mind to understanding and compassion instead of trying to tough it out. 

Emma

Hi Emma,

Thank you once again for your comments.  As you can probably tell I am very angry, hurt and confused.  I am also in mourning.  I don't know if transgender people understand the mourning part of this situation.  While many of you may feel that sense of relief or excitement (I don't know the proper words) when you come out, you may not realize the pain and suffering that you leave in your wake.   You have previously mentioned the situation with your ex wife.  It is great that you guys still have a good relationship but I find it hard to imagine that this was not an extremely painful situation for her.  If I remember correctly, you have had these feelings of believing you are a female since you were young but yet you still got married to a woman who believed you were a man and had 2 kids with her.  While I respect your decision to live your life as you want,  I still find it hard to believe that your ex wife is as comfortable with the situation as you are saying she is.  I feel like I am dealing with the death of a daughter..... which if she continues down this path, I will have lost a daughter.  Your view may be that I have gained a son, but I do not see it that way.   

You stated that you are worried about my son.  My son is 13 and is having his own issues with this family situation.  The person you are referring to is my daughter.  I believe she needs a lot more help to understand and deal with these feelings.  I want my daughter back desperately.  

Hi David,

A lot of what I just typed in response to Emma would also apply to your comments but I wanted to comment on a couple of things.

I do not believe gender is fluid anymore than I believe a cat can be a dog.   Does transgender exist in any other living beings besides humans?  Human beings have the ability to make choices based on how they feel and think vs other animals.  Most animals are just about food, shelter, and procreation.  Maybe it's just something in the mind.  

I am someone who believes in proof and facts.  I have searched repeatedly for some kind of proof that transgender exists in DNA, biology, chemistry, blood, or anything else to no avail.  It seems that transgender exists just because people say it exists. 

While most of you here have stated that you know you are transgender... what proof do you actually have even to yourself other than that's how you feel or how your brain works.  How do you know that there isn't something in your head that just isn't working properly and making you believe you are a different gender?  I am very serious with this question.  I know that saying this might be a form of mental illness would be upsetting to many people, but let's not call it mental illness.. maybe it's just some other issue that hasn't be diagnosed and once diagnosed properly can be resolved.  

Hi JeffDad,

Thank you for keeping up the dialog. I'm happy to respond to more specific issues such as what you raised.

8 hours ago, JeffDad said:

As you can probably tell I am very angry, hurt and confused.  I am also in mourning.  I don't know if transgender people understand the mourning part of this situation.  While many of you may feel that sense of relief or excitement (I don't know the proper words) when you come out, you may not realize the pain and suffering that you leave in your wake.   You have previously mentioned the situation with your ex wife.  It is great that you guys still have a good relationship but I find it hard to imagine that this was not an extremely painful situation for her.  If I remember correctly, you have had these feelings of believing you are a female since you were young but yet you still got married to a woman who believed you were a man and had 2 kids with her. 

Your emotions are valid and very understandable. Indeed, my wife was devastated when I came out to her. She felt I'd betrayed her and lied to her which was true in some ways although we had had some conversations about my feelings even before we married. We've been apart for almost a year and a half and it's only recently that she's not crying when we get on the phone. I have no doubt that her pain has been awful and I feel so sorry and guilty about this. It's one reason I came "that close" to doing myself in about two years ago. 

I agree too that some trans people in their euphoria and rejoicing of coming into their own authenticity don't appreciate what their other close family and friends go through. We have a saying that "everyone transitions with you" that tries to capture that sentiment. We trans people also tend to forget that we've learned so much about what it is to feel gender dysphoria, to be trans, and all that, while it's all very new and scary for our partners and families. Caitlyn Jenner comes to mind as one that they think about. Or that we must be gay. Like any preconceived notion it takes time and communication to rebuild understanding. 

8 hours ago, JeffDad said:

The person you are referring to is my daughter.  I believe she needs a lot more help to understand and deal with these feelings.  I want my daughter back desperately.  

I can hear how much you love your child and how much you want her "back." I will say that from what I've read from you I tend to feel that while your concern for your child is real (and understandable) that you're perhaps more concerned about what your child says/does will reflect on you. Maybe you feel that you did something wrong? Maybe you're afraid for what your friends and family might say or do? I suggest that you try to sort that out with a therapist. I am not denying your feelings and emotions in any way. I'm just wanting to help you through this and by doing that help your child.

8 hours ago, JeffDad said:

I am someone who believes in proof and facts.  I have searched repeatedly for some kind of proof that transgender exists in DNA, biology, chemistry, blood, or anything else to no avail.  It seems that transgender exists just because people say it exists. 

Me too. I am an electrical engineer/computer scientist and worked in these fields for the past 30+ years. As I've written to you elsewhere I went through a tremendous amount of research to determine for myself that to be transgender isn 't a choice, that we are born with it. I agree that it's painful that we don't have an objective test for it. However, long after I was satisfied that trans people are born this way I asked the endocrinologist who wrote Why I Wish All My Patients Were Transgender a question about a year ago before I started hormone therapy: "I've heard that trans people feel terrific when taking cross-sex hormones and assumed that it was kind of a placebo euphoria. So my question is this, if their feelings are real (i.e., stay with them long after they start hormones) would cis people feel lousy taking these hormones and, through that, tend to confirm or deny that they are transgender?" He answered in the affirmative, that I am correct. True, we're still relying on feelings to figure this out. But the same is true for psychological medications. I wish we had tests for which serotonin uptake inhibitors I need and it took many frustrating and expensive tries to get it right. 

8 hours ago, JeffDad said:

While most of you here have stated that you know you are transgender... what proof do you actually have even to yourself other than that's how you feel or how your brain works.  How do you know that there isn't something in your head that just isn't working properly and making you believe you are a different gender?  I am very serious with this question. 

I do sometimes wrestle with this question, too. Am I really trans? Although I've had several professionals confirm that I am I still experience occasional worries. But here's the thing: I know how much happier and content that I am now versus how I've felt over the last six decades. I'm not partying like it's 1999 or running around in mini-skirts and heels. I'm just going about my life as a woman in her early 60s who also happens to be lesbian. I love it.

But I also get it that talking to someone like me may be worrisome. Perhaps it's like I'm trying to convert your religion or something. I thus strongly suggest that you watch some of the videos I sent to you that are by professionals. These people have no axe to grind other than trying to understand and help their patients/clients, some of whom are children. 

You need to put in your own effort to understand this. I understand that you wish it'd all go away but I also wish I didn't have to pay taxes, that the climate isn't changing, and that I was 40 years younger. Wishes don't solve anything.

God trying to educate a bigot is like pushing a Cadillac through a straw.

"I do not want her to be in this world."
So you would prefer her dead? So she doesn't have to live in a world of people who are, as you put it "deluded", as we are? That's more than selfish. It says that as long as you get what you want, then nothing and no one else matters. If he matters so little to you, then you should just leave, and never return. Find another job in another country.

You think being transgender is a choice? Then by that logic you chose to be cis. You chose to be straight. Me personally, I chose to wear a white shirt. I chose to collect various items. I chose to let my hair grow long. Did you choose to have feet? Did you choose your race/ethnicity? Did you choose your eye color? I'm pretty sure the answers there are "NO".

Something else that has no solid proof is a deity. Are you part of any religion? Can you show me rock solid proof that your deity exists?
"Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it real."
Sucks when your own ideals are turned back at you, and you have no way to refute it, huh?

We are people. The same as anyone else. More so than some. We just want to live our lives. We're not monsters. A couple t-shirts I have would sum that up really well:

"Keep calm. It's a Pitbull, not a freakin' monster."
"I can see the hate in your eyes."

You judge before you learn. If you learn at all. No one wakes up one day and decides "Today I'm going to be trans. Tomorrow I think I might be a fish." While we're talking about animals, did you know that there are several kinds of animals that can sporadically change sex? So supposed biology, and everything it thinks it knows, is not necessarily written in stone.

There ARE more than two genders. You may not like it, but there are. And from your words, you don't care about your son. You care about your public image. I would say what I think of you, but you're not worth the time.